Below the exercise I took from the internet (I do have the key but I don �t always use keys...I �m afraid I �m a bit stubborn  when it comes to this). Well, I used it in a test and handed the test to a colleague. I thought it was fairly clear about the difference between the simple past and past perfect. Until he started asking questions �why �. I managed to explain everything except for nrs 10, 12 and 13. I �d use the simple past for 12 and 13 and the past perfect for 10.  (I �d definitely use the past perfect here because of the �Before... � . It �s a past before an other past. An other teacher said she �d definitely use the past simple...) I �m left so confused...  Now I �ve got two questions:

 

- What �s right to fill in? Is the version stated above OK?

- Isn �t it possible that they use the past simple in real life when we �d teach them to use the past perfect? In other words how consequent are people in the use of these tenses? 

 

Kristien

 

Danny Ocean (played by George Clooney) 1__ (be) a thief and a gangster who 2 __ (be) in prison. One day, he 3 __ (find) his partner named Rusty and they both 4 __ (decide) to work on a new job that they 5 __(accept) a week ago. The job 6 __ (involve) robbing the vault  where there 7 ___ (be) lots of money from three famous casinos in Las Vegas. They 8__ (plan) to rob it one night when there 9__(be) over 150 million dollars in it. Before they put the plan in motion, they 10 __(ask) nine other guys to help them do the job. Everything was going well until Rusty 11 __(discover) that Danny Ocean �s ex-wife 12 __ (be) Terry Benedict�s girlfriend, and Terry 13__ (own) all three casinos! But Danny 14 __(still/love) her very much. Terry 15 __ (ask) Danny to choose between his girlfriend and the money, and Danny 16__ (respond) by saying �both�!

Excellent explanations. 

 

 

And that �s coming from someone that only knows authentic English .

Thank you so much! You �ve all been a great help!!!  I definitely agree with eng789. Those were very clear explanations! So, it �s indeed a matter of context. I suppose I got a bit stuck having my own ideas for 12 and 13... There �s an other way of looking at it! Silly me, to be confused that quickly...

 

So guys, you �ve helped a sea camel move on!

 

Enjoy your evening!

 

Kristien

Dear Kristien and dear Zora,
Allow me to add the following comments:
1. We should have at least two events to be able to use the PAST PERFECT; It �s use is to show that an action (event) happened before another action in the past.
2. Both simple past and past perfect are actions that happened and finished in the past; No relation whatsoever with the present. (Sorry Zora, I don �t agree with you.)
3. Simple past and past perfect are interchangeable (either of them is correct) when the conjunctions used are �before � or �after � because these two conjunctions are semantically explicit i.e. when know which one is the first action and which is the second. We don �t need the past perfect.
4. The ambiguity is when we use the conjunction �when � as in:
- He finished his work when he went out to play. ==>Wrong
- He had finished his work when he went out to play. ==> Correct.
- He (had) finished his work before he went out to play.
5. When combining sentences, the use of the past perfect may change completely the meaning. Notice the following examples.
a. They got married. They found a flat. ==> Either of them may have happened first, so we can have two meaningful sentences (i.e. two meanings)
a1. They didn �t get married until they had found a flat. (Finding a flat was the 1st action.)
      They got married after they (had) found a flat. (Same as above.)
a2. They had got married when/before they found a flat. (Getting married is the 1st action.)

b. He repaired his car. He sold it. ==> Only one meaning is possible. Repairing 1st action and selling 2nd action.
He didn �t sell his car until he had repaired it.
As soon as/after he had repaired his car, he sold it.
He had repaired his car when/before he sold it.

In conclusion, I would use Simple past or Past perfect for 10, Past perfect for 12 and 13 (Actions of being and owning are anterior to discovering).
Thank you all.
Al