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Message board > Grammar help! Like studying or like to study..
Grammar help! Like studying or like to study..
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Samantha.esl
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Grammar help! Like studying or like to study..
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Hi, Last night I saw this thread http://www.eslprintables.com/forum/topic.asp?id=14659 and my internet conexion went off so I couldn �t follow it an comment on it. I am quite concerned with the fact that many teachers ask for grammar help (I �m one of them) and I often see �native speakers � replying as if they knew more than the grammar rules that exist. We must be careful because it also happens in Italian, Spanish etc.. We often do not speak according to the rules, but because we are natives it �s ok!?...No no.. There are rules... In this case the author of the thread asked about the difference in meaning when using -ing and to infinitive. When was at university, I was taught that there IS a difference. It �s not the same to say: "I love wearing make-up" ( this means you really enjoy doing it as a general pleasure)
"I love to wear make-up when I go out" ..... (the sentence must be followed by a purpose or maybe infered by the context of the conversation..etc.. if the last part is not mentioned.
SO clearly there is a purpose after the TO inf... which is different than when you use the ing form).
I just find quite annoying when native speakers think because they speak the language since they were born, know more than linguists.. and grammar books.
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4 Dec 2009
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colibrita
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I agree that there is a difference sometimes. Although I �m not sure I agree that a purpose has to follow or be inferred. For example it �s perfectly correct to say "I love to wear makeup on Saturdays".
I like this explanation:
The two forms are often interchangeable, but there is a subtle difference: the participial form (like doing)
necessarily conveys a sense of enjoyment in the performance that is not
necessarily conveyed by the infinitive form. For example, we might say
" I like to know the truth, though I don �t always like knowing it."
(WIKIANSWERS)
Happy Weekend,
Colibrita
"a native speaker" (hopefully not one of those dreadfully annoying ones though!! ; ) )
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4 Dec 2009
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cheezels
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Wow... you seem to assume that native speakers are not trained teachers and don �t know or are not aware of the rules. So please step down off your high horse. I am a trained and qualified teacher with over 13 years teaching experience.
Often when a native speaker replies it is to give another view point. How the concept or word or phrase is used in natural everyday English.
Do you know what I find annoying? People who shout and insult in the forum without actually taking into consideration that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Also insulting as Zora probably knows more about grammar than most.
Also in the thread that you are referring to different grammar explanations were given and the two natives (at the END of the thread) were merely giving another viewpoint on top of that.
Is there is any difference in the meaning of the sentence that was given. NO.
So what is the point of this thread? To insult native speakers???!!!
OH and the example that was given by the OP the word that she used CAN be used interchangeably so the replies that she got were actually both helpful and correct!!!
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4 Dec 2009
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Samantha.esl
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@ Cheezels!
WOW! Hold your horses please!!!
Because I do not think all native english speakers here are not qualified teachers! I never said that! I said that it �s confusing when you come all saying it �s all the same!.. THEN what for are the rules!?
Nothing else!
Oh btw: I DO not think I have insulted you, so please do not twiste the post!..
.............oh well............think whatever you like....
@colibrita: Thank you, what you say is exactly what I was taught and found in grammar books. That´s the correct answer!
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4 Dec 2009
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cheezels
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Answers were given to the SPECIFIC QUESTION that the OP asked relating to a Specific SENTENCE.
You don �t think that this is insulting????
Quote : "I
just find quite annoying when native speakers think because they speak
the language since they were born, know more than linguists.. and
grammar books."
"and I often see �native speakers � replying as if they knew more than the grammar rules that exist."
EDIT: and if you don�t think the tone of your post is insulting then I suggest you read it again.
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4 Dec 2009
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mariamit
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Hey Samantha, I happen to agree with cheezels. The way your post is worded is a little insulting. It insunuates that natives don �t speak properly. Although this maybe true in many cases, I really think it is not the case on this site. Please remember that the native speakers of this site are also qualfied teachers. As to the ing and to forms, I didn �t see it yesterday but I am also a native speaker, a qualified teacher with over 25 years teaching experience and with an MA in TESOL and linguistics. There is almost no difference and we do use them interchangeably. Most grammar books state this. Setyarini stated this yesterday. I hope my post doesn �t sound high-handish but I really do get tired of often reading about native speakers not being qualified. Unfortunately that is your implication. |
4 Dec 2009
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Zora
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Wow...
I think that everybody who is a non-native teacher/speaker here should stop for a moment and think... "Would YOU like it if another person, who learned your language, but was not a Native speaker, came up to you and said "No, you are wrong. You shouldn´t or can �t say that because... "?? - I bet that you would be insulted.
A Native speaker - in any language - knows their language better than any person that has learned it. It �s normal.
AND to imply that WE don �t have knowledge of our own language would be like US telling YOU you don �t know how to speak yours.
So as they say in Spanish Samantha - "Menos lobos Caperucita..." - or quite simply, "get off your high horse."
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4 Dec 2009
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arkel
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Hi all, as a native speaker and a qualified ESOL/TEFL teacher for over 30 years and with experience teaching English to many nationalities and so knowing and understanding problems in several languages, I was also a little peeved when I read your post. Sometimes something SOUNDS ok in a language and doesn �t necessarily have to be found in a grammar book. Personally I use like etc with the gerund, but I know several native USA people who use it with the infinitive. When I use the infinitive, I usually specify when or why. Am I wrong as a native speaker with a vast knowledge of my language because a grammar book doesn �t do it the exact same way? I think not! All of my �native � colleagues are correct in what they say and the beauty of a living language is its diversity. There are many �non-native � English teachers here who give excellent explanations and could never be faulted on their knowledge. As an owner of a language school here in Spain I �ve never distinguished between �native � or �non-native � teachers, but between �vocational and �I need this job for the money � teachers. Sometimes you have to �feel � the expression and I love that there are so many nationalities here as I learn from everybody.  Rosemary |
4 Dec 2009
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Samantha.esl
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I �ll repeat! I DO NOT think I �ve insulted you AT all! I was trying to make you see that no-native speakers follow rules to use and learn the language. Sometimes, students come up asking WHY, WHAT �s the difference and we MUST be able to give an appropriate answer. There is ALways an explanation. So I �m very annoyed when �natives � come here saying: It �s all the same. No difference in meaning. I don �t want to know if you have a master or if you are a psycholiguist. And btw: I �m not on any high horse like most of you who come and try to explain how many degrees you have! 
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4 Dec 2009
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cheezels
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I can see you are having a hard time comprehending what has been written.
Is there anything that I can explain for you again?
QUOTE: "I was trying to make you see that no-native speakers follow rules to use and learn the language."
What makes you think that native English kids don �t learn grammar rules at school? When I taught in London it was an hour a day 5 days a week for native speakers.What makes you assume that native speakers do not give correct and appropriate answers to English questions in class? Whether it is teaching English to non natives or native English speakers. Again another brash statement from you.
You have now had teachers in this thread say to you that how you have worded your original post is offensive and insulting. You give a thread post as an example but have refused to listen or understand the reasoning behind the answers given.
Have you ever heard the saying "give someone enough rope....."
You are showing yourself to be quite a rude and insulting madam.
I wont be replying any more in this thread because I really do think that between myself and the others we have made our point crystal clear.
Well that is to everyone except you it would seem.....
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4 Dec 2009
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almaz
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Yes, the points made by other teachers have been made clearly ( �nun so deaf as those who will not hear � - ouch!). What I see is someone trying to start a divisive thread (based on the old native v. non-native argument - which certainly has its place, if discussed maturely).
I �d like to add that, in my view, the blind following of rules does nothing to help our students finesse their command of the language, especially if we agree that the functionality of grammar is what is important - as a complex patterning of words which is essentially a social activity. This is not the same as saying that there are no rules - understanding and using the patterns appropriately can also be seen as being aware of the �rules � - obviously while using the appropriate metalanguage to teach students.
I wonder how the OP would have marked the likes of Sterne, Joyce and others who challenged the traditional view of how the language should be written. And let �s not get into dialect...
Have a weekend,
Alex
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4 Dec 2009
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