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ESL forum > Concerning worksheets > "FAIR USE" is good for images, but not for ´layouts ´?    

"FAIR USE" is good for images, but not for ´layouts ´?





gabitza
Romania

I am a ´layout ´ defender - that ´s for sure. Why? You might understand my point of view, too - I sure understand yours.

Since I joined this site, more than a year ago, I learned a lot. I always liked drawing and designing but it was here that my ´artistic ´ inner emerged. I did that by working a lot, surpassing my limits, being constantly encouraged by your comments. I spent thousand of hours in front of my PC and I loved every minute of it mostly because it resulted in a workbook series I published (Fun-tastic English 1 & 2).
I am now publishing some colouring & activity books for preschoolers and the most important aspect for the series is the layout. They won ´t sell if they aren ´t attractive.
To make a Ws I sometimes spend hours arranging the textboxes and the graphic on the page. And when I take that Ws to the classroom it is so rewarding to here my Ss say "Wow!" or  "This is cool!". It is also rewarding to see the number of downloads I get for that Ws.
Even if the content is basic, the layout is indeed what ´sells ´ a Ws. I wasn ´t good at using Word (not to mention Powerpoint!!!) when I first started here. But I wanted to learn, try new thing, click everything clickable - I am still learning. Now I am proud of myself, I did quite a good job over the last year. I have developed my own style - for I which I want to be recognized (someone left a comment on one of my games and said my work is a ´brand ´ - without modesty - I am being sincere). There is a lot of work behind the result I upload on the site and to tell you truth, it really hurts me when I see people using my graphic / layout to create their own Ws. It is OK to use it and present it to the Ss, but it is not OK to upload it / publish it on the net as ´copyrighed - some-body-else ´.
 
Sorry for being so long. I believe that other people on this site work a lot to upload those wonderful Ws - which not only teachers here, but students too - really appreciate!
 
Have a great day!
 

15 Dec 2009     



gabitza
Romania

Sorry, brunadutra,

I haven ´t answered your Qs.
 
My layout/graphic are not published anywhere else on the net. I don ´t make money by people paying for them. It ´s not like other clipart on the net - where the graphich is free for personal use - but the owner(s) of the site gets money according to the numbers of visitors on the site. I understand the ´fair ´ use in that case. But on ESL printables?
 
I think if we want to use somebody else ´s layout, we should then make a special section: ´LAYOUTS ´ and those willing to share their layouts could upload them there.
 
Gabitza

15 Dec 2009     



Bruna Dutra
Brazil

Gabitza, thank you thank you for your answer. And I think your work stands out. I also think many people can develop to their own style (not everyone wants to work hard, I know, and those people probably won ´t go very far ever), I was just thinking about starters, about getting the hang of eslprintables. I also learned a lot.

Very frequently we see hideous copies, but we also see ´look-alike ´ ws being reported as copies, is that the case too?

How can we get to a definite point here? I know I ´m pushy too, and today I ´ve spent more time than usual in the site. I just want to get this over-with for the site ´s sake (and for the moderators ´ as well, for that matter). I fell in love with the site and the community, I wanna help as I can.

hugs

15 Dec 2009     



Bruna Dutra
Brazil

LOOOVED the idea of ´layout/template section, by the way. PhilipR has already shared a gameboard for people who couldn ´t darw their own (but can too have great ESL game ideas).

Would it be a solution?

But regarding your work, do you agree that sometimes people (in here too) scan a pic from a book/magazine to create their work (as fair use), now that you ´ve published your work, would it be okay for others to use your pics? I know your answer dear Gabitza, I just can ´t help but wonder, you understand?

15 Dec 2009     



Samantha.esl
Italy

I am not a computer wizard but I also defend people ´s designed layouts! I think, as I ´ve said before that we should respect this. Some people spend hours designing their layouts to make the worksheet attractive. I do agree in that content is what matters most but I also love to see students faces when you give them lovely desinged worksheets. Which doens ´t mean they have to be shinny and with loads of cliparts and colours. I ofren turn them into B&W worksheets as I can ´t afford priting colourful worksheets. But I think that people have to create their own layouts. Of course word tools are the same to everyone. But some people use basic things and other spend, as Gabitza said, hours in front of the pc trying to make something original and attractive.. for us and for students! So why should we allow people ´stealing ´ and using other people ´s hard work like this? to get more downloads? I don ´t think so..

15 Dec 2009     



gabitza
Romania

Newcomers will learn the rules, sooner or later. As I did. Can you imagine that my first cards ever that I uploaded here when I was a newcomer were reported as stolen? Yes, I used clipart from mesenglish (LOL). I learned my lesson the hard way.
To be honest, I never read the FAQ or the rules before strating to upload - as was in a rush for points as I wanted a ´Phrasal look ´ Ws urgently - I am sure many of the newcomers don ´t read the rules. Sometimes, using ´forbidden ´ pictures/layout is done unknowingly and those authors don ´t want to hurt anyone ´s feelings. They just don ´t know. But then, there are a few who are aware and still don ´t care.
 
So, yes, a TEMPLATE / LAYOUT section would be a good tool for newcomers.
 
Hugs to everybody,
Gabitza

15 Dec 2009     



zailda
Brazil

Sometimes I spend hours to arrange the textboxes and the pictures to match the content (the most important in a ws, IMHO) so I can ´t see the point of using another person ´s "layout". The layout will vary according to what I want to teach and the exercises I ´m going to prepare, so using another person ´s layout for me is just nonsense. It implies the person started the ws from the layout and then inserted anything to match it, and for me we have to go the opposite way - having an idea and developing a subject and then preparing a good layout to the content.

The layout and clipart are the "outfit" and the content is the "body", when preparing a layout I ´m just dressing the body. When using other person ´s layout it seems like if we have the outfit and look for a body to fit in it. Crazy, isn ´t it?

I don ´t worry about having a style, for me the most important is the content - as I ´m not tired of repeating - because I ´m not an artist just like Katiana, Gabitza and others we proudly have here, I draw my ws from the beginning through the end, none in my ws is copied - except for the clipart, since I ´m unable to draw - but I ´m a layout defender: if someone prepared something and spent hours on it, this person deserves the credit for his work.

If someone wants to use a certain layout (because he thinks it fits perfectly his content) - so ask for permission, mention it in the ws description and provide the link for the previous ws. That ´s all. Does it hurt? No. So why some members just take what they want and claim it as theirs? It ´s not fair, and the real author has the right to report in those cases.

I really appreciated Philip ´s attitude to share his layouts, but since we don ´t have a "layout section" - which I think we should have - they don ´t have a place here, because they are not exactly related to ESL and many layouts were removed in the past - so we have to be consistent. For now, if you want to share layouts, prepare a tutorial (they are allowed) teaching how to make them, and share your layout at the second, third, etc... pages. That ´ll be nice. Or prepare a simple game / ws and state that you are giving permission to everyone to use it as a basis for a new ws.

As Victor told me, it ´s not the case of YOU not caring about other people using YOUR layout (not specially directed to anyone). Since others care, we have to be fair and protect their right. This is a community and it ´s not about what is the best for ME, but what ´s the best for US.

Have a nice day.

15 Dec 2009     



Bruna Dutra
Brazil

Well, so far all the opinions have been great (for my understanding, specially), but as we can ´t get to a definite point here, I pmed Victor asking him to help us a little. Maybe adding ALLOWED/NOT ALLOWED examples in the rules, to help people understand the definite facts, and to apply them to everyone.

For example: Very frequently we see hideous copies, but we also see ´look-alike ´ ws being reported as copies, is that the case too?

Like I said, I ´ve received almost more pms than replies, nobody wants to offend anybody by speaking their minds, but they would offend many, because sometimes we don ´t want to admit that our opinion is not always selfless, it ´s nature. I just couldn ´t help remembering VICTOR in all of this, who has selflessly (well, not entirely if you consider he uses his websites too, but I don ´t consider that) created a bunch or resources and websites.

If people stated where/from whom they got the layout from, would that be okay? And even an ´ad ´ for the creator?

I just remembered now that one of my layouts (read: ws graphic arrangement) was an idea I took from this printable: http://www.eslprintables.com/printable.asp?id=298255#thetop
After downloading I saw it was copied from a website (the whole background). Should I delete my work? Or now I have the copyright of such arrangement?

Some members have too similar styles, and when I read stuff like I did in the other topic (Red headings belong to Katiana - which I hope it was a joke, notebook template to Portugal teachers and so on) it just come to my mind that it doesn ´t agree to this web.

Dear Zailda, thank you for sharing your opinion, the body is always more important, but haven ´t you ever seen a ´dying beautiful ´ outfit you want to see if you can ´fit ´ in it? Whenever I want to borrow clothes from my girl friends, I always ask, sure, but they also always lend me. Just something that came to my mind when I read your analogy!
Smile

Just spent my lunch time in eslprintables.com. But I ´ll wait to see how things go.
Bye guys!!
Great hugs.

Bruna



15 Dec 2009     



zailda
Brazil

Saying that red headings belong to Katiana and notebook templates belong to Portuguese teachers is going too far, but you are joking, aren ´t you?

I loved the notebook template so I spent hours learning how to draw it. It would be simpler if I just downloaded a Portuguese teacher ´s ws and inserted content in it, but I wouldn ´t do it because it ´s not fair. Sometimes during a ws preparation I remember some solutions I saw in the site (borders, layout, pictures) and go search for them to use.

Sometimes I ´m not able to find, but during the searching I manage to find things that fit better or that I ´ll use in the future, so I keep them.

If you have a dress and want your cousin ´s necklace to go with it because you think it fits perfectly, you have two fair options:

- asking her to lend you the necklace;

- buying a similar one (here in the ws matter you can consider drawing it yourself).

But in any case I think no one would just take it without asking permission first, and if a person asks "where have you bought it" I guess the majority would answer "I borrowed from my cousin".

I find strange that someone would ask THE WHOLE OUTFIT, that ´s all. Or that would use it without previous permission or the owner ´s knowledge.

15 Dec 2009     



JudyHalevi
Israel

I think we are missing the forest for the trees here.  I like fancy worksheets, as my students like them.  Often I download worksheets with lots of colours and spend, literally, hours fixing the content, grammar, spelling, etc.  I often download plain worksheets and spend less time changing colours, adding boxes, clipart, etc.  I am amazed when I see that a worksheet that has more than a hundred downloads with grammar errors that are basic.
 
I love this site, and love the friendship that we have here.  I think basic decency says to ask permission to use layouts/clipart whatever. 
 
I would like to take this opportunity to thank all you lovely people out there for sharing their wonderful work.
 
Hugfrom Israel
 
Judy

15 Dec 2009     

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