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ESL forum > Grammar and Linguistics > Modals of deduction    

Modals of deduction





aliciapc
Uruguay

Zailda, I didn �t mention you or tell you anything regarding your posts! I just wanted to state that both, Bruce and Mish, have been really helpful - to me at least - nothing against you !
And yes, you are nice! but your "throw away grammar books and ..." surprised me, to tell you the truth, not because you don �t have a point - you do! we cannot always believe that natives know it all, as we don �t about spanish or portuguese - but Bruce has proved to know the language well and how to explain about it!
Sorry if I offended you in any way, not my intention at all !

6 Dec 2010     



zailda
Brazil

So I understand that I�d better disregard what�s written in the grammar book, and also what was taught by two Americans, who are also English graduated teachers. In fact I don�t know Bruce but for me is difficult to disregard what was taught by people who have a master degree in English (and are Americans as well).

I agree that people use language in different ways in different regions, but it can�t be used as standard. There are some Portuguese rules that are not used in Brazil, but as a Portuguese teacher I have to teach them.

Of course I�m free to explain my students that we use it in a different way, but if they take an official exam, they have to use what the rule states and not the way we use them.

6 Dec 2010     



roneydirt
United States

Zailda you are like a lot of my Asian staff. "If it is print it is correct"  We discussed this in my Ethics for Teachers class and we found the typical textbook on this subject is up to the whim of the printer.  Not all in print is correct and not all Native English teachers are correct but have to agree with those that you disagree with on this one.  "May, might and could" are probably something will happen while the word "must" is more of a demand or guarantee it will happen.  This is not an American English thing it is a standard English rule.  I found that mistake in my text here on what it sounds like you were talking about; it was a poor copy of a British textbook based out of Hong Kong press using the original text book cover.  I am sitting with the original British textbook and the one used at my school going over the rules in it for my lesson.  The changes are obvious between the two and they have the same cover.  Sadly the company that I am using this poor copy is a very well known ESL academy with schools around the world.

Also remember even though the English constants have stayed basically the same since the 15th Century language is an evolving living thing and some of the grammar rules have changed as well.  Statistically speaking the average textbook is 10 to 15% wrong and it is even worst when they are bad copies from let�s just say shady companies cashing in on a larger more well known printing company.  The language dictionaries are even worst with a statistically 30% inaccuracy rating.  Some stopped adding the "col" when it is a colloquial word.   Scary isn�t it?

6 Dec 2010     



zailda
Brazil

I didn �t say "if it �s print is correct" and I also found some mistakes in reliable books. If you read my post, two (or more, can �t remember) graduated English teachers (Americans) taught us the same.
 
Some books have exercises: complete with may or might, and they have keys for teachers to correct. According to this complete new world you �re showing me now, they are complete nonsense then. If they are used interchangeably, what �s the aim of giving students exercises to tell them apart? As I learned, they can be used interchangeably, but with difference in degree.
 
must / cannot (stronger) > may > might (less degree of probability, or implying there are other non-mentioned options.)
 

EDIT: I don�t know how much the word �probable� implies, but they are presented as �degrees of probability�, not possibility.

6 Dec 2010     



yanogator
United States

Actually, "probability" doesn �t imply anything here, since it can range from 0% (completely impossible) to 100% (absolutely certain), so "degrees of possibility" would mean the same thing. It �s just that the common expression is "degrees of probability", coming from the field of Statistics.
 
Bruce

6 Dec 2010     



alien boy
Japan

G�day strangers!

Just to add my 2 cents worth�

Zailda � it�s certainly reasonable that you may have been taught the �degrees of probability/possibility� by American trained native English speakers. It could also be that they might have been regurgitating what they were taught without actually thinking about the way in which the language is actually applied!

But I would also have to say that according to Swann�s �Practical English Usage�  (in his 3rd edition, anyway) Zailda has it right!

As others here have observed, English textbooks (& texts in general) may have many errors & could conflict with observations & nuances detailed by many native (or near native) English speakers� I won�t go into what I consider to be the reasons for this in this comment, however!

In my experience:

�May � � tends to be used as a more polite form of �might� in my experience of common usage.

Might is usually more casual & perhaps even rhetorically used as a preference to �may�.

�Could � is often used to introduce a speculative consideration that invites further discussion of the reason or likelihood of an occurrence.

 

But, as with all English, there are many possibilities because of variation in English dialects.

 

To sum up, I agree with Bruce & Roneydirt about the interchangeability & contemporary use of may/might/could but also support Zailda�s comments about probability/certainty, particularly as Swann has said as much - & I�m sure he�s done far more research on this than I have!

 

Cheers & Happy St Nicholas� Day to you all.

6 Dec 2010     



mish.cz
Czech Republic

Good morning, everyone,�

I would like to thank all the people who tried to help me explain the grammar point. I am more than satisfied with the answers I got and I think that after balancing the different points of view I am able to make my own conclusion.�

You all were very helpful to me, good job�

Wish a a beautiful day, mine is just �starting

Mish

6 Dec 2010     



douglas
United States

Bruce and AB have summed it up pretty well--we native speakers don �t usually learn how to use our English words from a language book.

For me all three have basically the same degree of probability and are interchangeable (taking into consideration AB �s usage notes about formality).
 
Douglas
 
EDIT:
An additional note:  If you are teaching for a specific qualification test and that organization says they are of different degrees, by all means teach it that way. If you are just teaching conversational--I wouldn�t notice a difference if you used any of the three. 

6 Dec 2010     

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