MODAL VERBS AND PERFECT MODAL VERBS

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ESL forum > Grammar and Linguistics > MODAL VERBS AND PERFECT MODAL VERBS

MODAL VERBS AND PERFECT MODAL VERBS

araveg

MODAL VERBS AND PERFECT MODAL VERBS

Hi, everybody

Just a question about modal and perfect modal verbs.

In these pair of sentences

1- It might not be as easy as you think

Could it be ?

It can�t or it mustn�t be as easy as you think.

2- Mary must have forgotten our appointment. Why isn�t she here?

Could it be?

Mary may have forgotten our appointmen............

Thanks in advance

3 Dec 2020

jannabanna

As a native English speaker I would say:

1- It might not be/can�t be as easy as you think. (Either but not mustn�t!!)

2- Mary must/may have forgotten our appointment. Why isn�t she here? (Either)

Some teachers may not agree with me, but in the second sentence, for me, both mean more or less the same thing.

Janet

3 Dec 2020

TeacherARG

Araveg,

I�d add that:

might not be --> Maybe it is; maybe, it isn�t. Who knows? It�s just one possibility

can�t be-->I�m almost sure it is not.

must have forgotten--> I�m almost sure she forgot. (She is very forgetful!)

may have forgotten-->It�s just one possibility. Maybe, she changed her mind. Who knows?

In all cases, you are speculating and drawing conclusions.

The contest is crucial!

3 Dec 2020

araveg

Thanks a lot.

I agree with you, but a second opinion for security is important.

4 Dec 2020

lillianschild

TeacherARG is right.

1) MIGHT NOT: distant possibility.

CAN�T: certainty

You can�t use "mustn�t" for speculation only for prohibition. "Can�t" is the opposite of MUST when speculating.

2) MUST HAVE: virtually certain.

MAY HAVE: possibility but not certainty

4 Dec 2020

yanogator

I�m going to disagree on "mustn�t" in the first sentence. It is possible, although it works better with "thought" than "think".

You are having a lot of difficulty with that puzzle. It mustn�t be as easy as you thought (it would be).

This means the same as "It must be more difficult than you thought."

Bruce

4 Dec 2020

araveg

Thanks a lot.

5 Dec 2020

lillianschild

As TeacherARG pointed out and I repeated in my previous post, "must not" cannot be used when we are certain something isn�t possible. "must not" is used for prohibition and the correct negative modal that corresponds to the postive "must" when speculating or talking about degree of certainty is "can�t".

I�ll quote The University of Birmingham�s "Collins Cobuild English Grammar" as one of many authoritative sources to confirm this:

CHAPTER 4:

INDICATING LIKELIHOOD

4.120 belief: "must" and "cannot"

You use "must" to indicate that you believe something is the case, because of particular facts of circumstance.

Oh, You must be Sylvia�s husband.

Fashion must account for a small percentge of sales.

This article must have been written by a woman.

When you�re indicating that something is not the case, you use "cannot". You do not use "must not".

The two conflicting messages cannot possibly both be true.

You can�t have forgotten me.

He can�t have said that. He just can�t.

4.130 impossibility: "could not" and "cannot"

You use "could not" or "cannot" to say that it is impossible that something is the case.

It couldn�t possibly be poison.

Kissinger cannot know what the situation is in the country.

You cannot talk to the dead.

5 Dec 2020

yanogator

Notice that Lillians examples don/t include must not, and that is what I�m talking about.

Maybe it�s only in the US, but we definitely use it for logical conclusions that are negative. These are not impossible, so we don�t use "can�t". I�m drawing a definite logical conclusion here, not just giving a possibility, so "may not" and "might not" aren�t strong enough.

She didn�t answer. She must not have heard the phone ringing. Maybe she is outside.

The credit card company must not have received my check yet, because the payment hasn�t posted to my account.

Instead of "She must have missed her train", we can say, "She must not have gotten to the train station in time."

Bruce

5 Dec 2020

lillianschild

Let me see if I can shorten my answer, Bruce, because for some reason the system would not allow me to submit it, Of course. there is what is grammatically correct and there�s usage- think of "like" and "as", for example. Colloquially, you can hear people say Nobody loves you like I do, especially in America- when the grammatically correct form is Nobody loves you as I do.

I�ll quote here Michael Swan�s Practical English Usage on the matter of "must not", which confirms that it may be heard among Americans when speculating/ inferring. As I said before, one thing is usage another is correct grammar, so it should be discouraged if your students are training for Cambridge exams, for instance.

MUST is not often used to express certainty in questions and negative clauses. In questions we use "can".

There is somebody at the door. Who can it be? (NOT ... Who must it be?)

In negative clauses we generally use cannot/can�t to say that something is certainly not the case.

It can�t be the postman at the door. It�s only seven o�clock. (NOT It mustn�t be the postman.)

However, must not/mustn�t is occasionally used in this sense, especially in American English.

I haven�t heard Molly moving about. She mustn�t be awake yet. Her alarm mustn�t have gone off. (OR She can�t be awake yet. Her alarm can�t have gone off.)

And mustn�t is normal in this sense in British English in question tags after "must", and in negative questions.

It must be nice to be a cat, mustn�t it? (NOT ... can�t it?)

Mustn�t it have been strange to live in the Middle Ages?

6 Dec 2020