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ESL forum > Grammar and Linguistics > Confusing modal meaning    

Confusing modal meaning





yanogator
United States

No, your first post was specifically about the passive use, and these new examples are active (and definitely correct).

 
I �ll take your word about your last statement, since I can �t prove that the sentence doesn �t exist anywhere in the English-speaking word. 

 

Bruce 

9 Mar 2015     



Gi2gi
Georgia

Bruce, this is what I said :
 
"But, if you use a phrase that clearly implies the future, you can also use the perfect infinitive for the future, just like you would use the future perfect tense "
 
As for the passive, I am not sure that the change of voice will make the sentence lose its correctness, though ...
 
Are you saying that while this sentence is OK 
 
We�ll meet again next week. We might have finished the work by then.
 
Then its passive variant is wrong?
 
 
We�ll meet again next week. The work might have been finished by then.
 
 Sorry If I got you wrong. I will come back tomorrow hoping to see your comments which I generally find interesting. 

9 Mar 2015     



alien boy
Japan

And just to round it out, if anyone has an example of the �It must have been finished by next Monday. � form that is stand alone in usage, rather than a mere fragment, I �d love to see some. It �s prescriptively grammatically possible, but I have yet to see it in my limited interaction with descriptive grammars. Have a wonderful day everyone.

9 Mar 2015     



jean-in-japan
Japan

Interesting.  
 
I agree that this sentence is fine: By that date all the forms required must have been completed and returned to the School Administration office.
 
Why then does �It must have been finished by next Monday � seem so wrong then?  One possible reason is that, to the native speaker, �finished � seems like an adjective in that sentence rather than a past participle.  The verb �complete � is a transitive verb, and, with the object of �complete � stated in the sentence (in the passive voice), this sentence is clearly the present perfect in the passive voice.   �Finish, � on the other hand, is both an intransitive and a transitive verb.  I would argue that, without a clear object stated, native speakers perceive �finish � as an intransitive verb.   �The movie finishes at 9 p.m. �  and �What time does the dance finish? � can be simplified as �It finishes at 9 p.m. � or �What time does it finish? �  In these cases �it � is the subject, not the object.  In the sentence �It must have been finished by next Monday, � we see (or hear) �it � as the subject, not the object.  Thus �it must have been finished � is not perceived as being in the passive voice, because �it � is interpreted to be the subject rather than the object. Therefore we interpret �It must have been finished � to be the past tense of �must � showing deduction -- �It must have been raining -- that �s why his shoes were wet. �   �Their marriage must have been over by then because he went on holiday by himself. �  And, since �must have � is a past tense form, it is clearly impossible/wrong to use �by next Monday � with it.  
 
In your above sentence, it �s also possible that �must have been � is used instead of �must be � in order to make a slight distinction in the time of the two different actions (completing the forms and returning them).  First, they �re completed.  Then, they �re returned.  The �be � before �returned � is omitted as something that is understood. 
 
If you can change the sentence around and add other elements to it to make it clear that �finish � is being used as a transitive verb, then, yeah, maybe it �s possible.  This might be one example.  The teacher, talking to his students, says:
 
�Okay, you �ve had a lot of homework to do these past few months.  I know it �s been a difficult week, but, by next Monday, all of your assignments must have been finished and then put on my desk. �  Personally, as a Canadian, I would probably say �... must be finished � in that sentence but I know in the U.K. the perfect tense is used more often than it is in North America.

9 Mar 2015     



cunliffe
United Kingdom

I haven �t really followed a lot of the ins and outs of this grammatical debate (t �s over my head), however, to refer to the original question - Mariflo, you are right. Must+have+pp can only be used for logical deduction for the past.

10 Mar 2015     



yanogator
United States

Well, Georgi, I �m not saying it �s wrong - just that we wouldn �t say it that way. So, even if it can be defended grammatically, it isn �t useful. 

Also, I guess I misspoke before. It was your examples that were passive, not your statement.. 
 
Bruce 

11 Mar 2015     



alien boy
Japan

Bruce, I�d be taking many of his statements as just aggressive!

Thanks everyone, I�ve found this thread interesting, even Giorgi�s musings on grammatical structures. Obviously not his overt aggression, however.

Take care, everyone!

11 Mar 2015     



Gi2gi
Georgia

Despite some good-for-nothing, self-revealing comments from an extraterrestial member of the forum, the topic was somewhat interesting, as a whole. Thanks everyone for having the time to comment.

12 Mar 2015     



alien boy
Japan

Wow, Giorgi! I was so surprised that you were so intimidated by me that you had to make a personal attack on me (when you don �t know me from a bar of soap) before I called you a wanker! Passive agressive or what? I don �t suppose you �re particularly familiar with either British or antipodean Englishes. Bye-bye

12 Mar 2015     



Gi2gi
Georgia

AB,  I WOULD NOT LIKE TO ENTER IN A GRUESOME DIALOGUE WITH YOU AND EXCHANGE INSULTS AND OFFENCES. THIS IS NOT MY STYLE. FAREWELL. 

12 Mar 2015     

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