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I don ´t want to be whiny or anything. Nor do I want to sound rude for the title of my post. Eslprintables has helped in more ways that I could describe. Really. However, I think I must write once more before I give in to the way things work around here.
I would like to discuss layouts again, yes. If it comes to the fact that I ´m wrong, then I ´ll give up my moderator ´s position and will refrain from reporting and voting (a position that is time consuming and I only do it because I want to get even - help the site that has help me so much).
In the past two days, a member had two wss reported, one on each day, because first her contribution had another member ´s name in the file properties and a very similar layout, although the esl resource was completely and absolutely different. The other day, the other ws had again a similar layout, again a total different exercise and no name under proporties. Yet, it was reported as a copy.
The ´stolen layout � in question was: a colored background, four circles on the left (imitating the holes in a papersheet) and two textboxes. Again: color, 4 circles and two textboxes.
Please, explain me if I ´m wrong, but how can THAT be a copyrighted thing? I apologize for the sarcasm, but only Bill Gates could claim property of THAT creation.
I have so much to talk about this subject - as everyone can see by now, I feel very strongly about this fact, and I hope I get to explain to you my reasons, or keep them to myself if that is not important for the community - but for now, I hope to see others think regarding the subject of ´fairness � in all of this.
Thanks for those who are kind to reply me and discuss this in here.
Dunno, but at least s/he should state sources... This layout was very simple I suppose, but if we are asked to give links to copied texts and pics, or where the idea is from, we should give credits to the author of the layout... It case he imitated the layout... I dunno... Some of my very first layouts and boardgames took me ages to make although they may look plain and easy to make... and I always upload the editable version, so anybody can edit the work and share it with his/her students.... but I think it ´s FAIR to ASK the author first or at least mention the website it is from... We are not so old... I must remember where I got the layout from... IF we cannot remember... Make new, unique layout and noone is sad...
There is a big difference between taking the layout as it is and imitating / inspiration... and there is a huge difference between the layouts, I can make 6 textboxes + 20 smilies layout within 3 minutes... but many of my worksheets took me HOURS to make... Then I have a strong feeling to those layouts... It´s a piece of art then... not a simple wordart anymore... And Victor´s rules are clear - ask first, if permission given, you can publish... Easy...
I agree with you that no one can have copyright on the layout created in the MS Word. Personally, I believe that copy means copy - the pictures, the exercises etc. I wouldn ´t mind if someone copied my layout (if I can call it mine - but it ´s something that makes me easily recognised - you know sth like a trademark). Other people used the layout I use in most of my wss before I became the member of this site but they haven ´t complained. (Maybe now they will )
Anyway, when I vote for a contribution to be deleted, I vote only when I check that it is stolen from someone else, copied from the book (which I have) or is written in language that is not English.
I believe that most members of the site share my opinion. But, hey, we have the right to think differently, don ´t we?
I admire your efforts and courage in order to keep the site clean. I also admire your creations and respect you as a valuable member here, so I ´ll never use sarcasm, irony or criticism with you.
As Victor stated clearly on the forum, we are not allowed to use other member ´s ws as a template (insert our content into other member ´s layout after erasing its previous content). Some layouts are very simple, just some boxes and a frame, but we notice that other members spend lots of their time creating a particular layout and they are recognized as theirs.
Under each ws here we can read:
Publication or redistribution of any part of this document is forbidden
without authorization of the copyright owner.
Since the layout is part of the member ´s creation, it ´s clear that no one can use it without the creator ´s authorization. It doesn ´t mean that we can ´t use, because if you ask, most of the members will give authorization. So you provide the layout author ´s link and that ´ll be OK.
Of course that you can create your own layout, similar to the one you like (and his name won ´t appear in the propperties of your document), and you don ´t need authorization for doing it. But when you make your own layout, even if it is pretty much the same as the previous, it won ´t be reported as a copy, because it is your own creation, even if you inspired in other person ´s layout to make it.
Lazzy members just erase the content from the ws they want, insert theirs and upload as their own work. If you want to borrow other person ´s things you need to ask first, isn ´t it correct? But instead of asking or spendind their time creating, they only take what they want. It ´s not correct, we have to respect other person ´s work, time and creativity.
The rule is clear and fair for me: if you want to use any part of other person ´s worksheet (something he spent his time creating) you have to ask first, and when you publish your work, you have to state the layout ´s creator and his link.
After all, using other person ´s layout spare us some time and makes our "content" more attractive for students and for the other members here.
To Caesar what is Caesar ´s.
EDIT: This is not my opinion, it was stated by Victor.
I can´t agree more. After all, a layout is just a layout, no matter how complex it may look. It´s like a kind of dress like the paper candies. More important is the language skills you put "in" it.
However I also understand why some members fell very angry when others use their "3 hours of work layouts" just filling them with new words, pictures and exercises... I couldn´t do that. I mean, I would do it in my school, to use it with my sts, but not to send it to ESL as my worksheet...
As veljaca82said,
we have every right to think differently, but as moderators we have to
vote according to the rules. Just read the license terms we have under
each worksheet published here and you ´ll see that the ws owner has the
right not only on the content, but on any part of it. Everything he
created is protected by the license at ESL Printables, whether we agree
or not.
If someone took one of your ws layouts (and it took you hours to prepare
it), youd have the right to say: I don ´t care. But if we are judging
other person ´s work (the owner) and he doesn ´t want his layout being
taken without permission or credit given, he has every right to think
so, and as moderators we have to defend his right.
There are tons of laws and rules which I don ´t agree with, I obey anyway.
Hi, I wasn ´t going to participate in this debate because it ´s an endless issue which is always being discussed but I got this pm:
.....
and as I don ´t want to exchange private messages about this public issue..I thought I ´d comment on this thread. I don ´t agree at all with what is being expressed in this pm. It doesn ´t mean that because we all have the same tools... (word tools, publisher..etc) we can copy and/or use as template other people ´s ideas! And btw, this worksheet http://www.eslprintables.com/printable.asp?id=352478#thetop doesn ´t even look similar to Eva ´s... No matter how easy it was to make. That ´s why creativity is endless and no-one would come up with the same things unless bluntly copied.
I don ´t understand why people can ´t understand that layouts are a personal touch each teacher gives to his/her work and we should respect that. The layout is part of the work, some spend more time trying to make something creative and different and others just use simple plain word documents. When I was browsing the recent contributions that day, I thought the worksheet belonged to Eva. I was the one to report the worksheet. Don ´t know about the second worksheet you mentioned Brunadutra. I understand your point of view, however, I disagree with it. I don´t either think that it´s a question of layouts on top of content. Both things are important. If you make a wonderful resource but it looks plain and common, then (in this site) it won´t get many points. If you arrange things and have a little taste and use of colours you can ´sell� it to more people. SO, if some people don´t like to spend a lot of time or aren´t too skilled with computers (like me) then why use other people´s layouts as templates. I think that´s not too honest. We can always ask for permission. Or accept what we have according to our capacity and skills!
Please, guys... let me clear something out... I was trying to keep my question to that example (not all the layouts made with MSword - that ´s why I said I was being sarcastic, because the layout that was reported was just too simple, IMHO, and not like it �may seen � simple to some - it IS simple to add a background, make four circles and two boxes).
Layout is a really important thing here in eslprintables, more than I would care, but I too tried to fit my wss to the eslprintables � style (it would be hypocrisy to say that when we upload something in here we don ´t want to get points, only if we already have plenty, in order to get use of the site, we need points). I had one ws with 15 downloads, I deleted it, add a ´cute � layout, uploaded again and baaam, 263 points by now, with the ABSOLUTE SAME ESL RESOURCE, from 15 to 263. I had already mentioned this with the moderators and I do not think this is ´fair � in a site where the main point is not graphics design, but neither ´unfair �, that ´s just the way it is.
So, I think where going downhill now, where something like graphics is more important than a useful thing that will help our students to develop their ENGLISH skills. I got to that conclusion with my example. I do not consider people who get inspiration or use someone ´s art skills to be lazy teachers. I cannot draw, therefore I use pictures that other people shared online, I ´m not lazy, I just cannot draw AT ALL. I do believe that no everyone has to be art creative or computer skilled in order to be a good hard-working teacher. And these people, if you ask me, do not have a place in the sun in here. Am I a demagoge defending the weak and oppressed? No. I just would like to see things differently.
A member commented on one of my ws that it had a great layout but it could use a few more exercises, I replyed saying that it wouldn ´t matter, I try to contribute with useful stuff (why the heck would I make something that I wouldn ´t use myself), however, if that was appreciated in here, I sure wouldn ´t waste my time creating something that I will throw out - I erase all the backgrounds I create for my printables in here, they would bankrupt me.
I remembered the Beatles now: "the best things in life are free, but you can give them to the birds and bees"! It looks like everyone here is after money (read: points). Including myself with my layouts! If I don ´t get points, how will I get use of eslprintables?
But sticking to the point I started, this member in question had a ws with someone else ´s name under it, so it was called a proof that she used someone else ´s work to start hers... But the second one didn ´t, so were assuming it was a copy again? Even if we don ´t have proof and even though that thing was so easy to be done and so simple to say that it belonged to thousands of members in here with the same ´look � in their wss.
My point is, I ´m not saying that I won ´t obey to the rules of the website, the thing is THE RULES ARE NOT STRAIGHTENED OUT. If we take:
Publication or redistribution of any part of this document is forbidden
without authorization of the copyright owner.
... as it ´s being suggested, then yes, I cannot use stars in my wss because the may have been taken from another one and have been used already. Am I taking it too far? Yes? Because that ´s exactly how I think things are going. Specially in the case that made me bring this up again.
Unless we draw a line here, stuff like that will keep happening and I think this kind of things are nowhere near good for the site. Because in my opinion, the graphics/layout are being overrated and the high level of good esl resources is losing its space.
But again, if that ´s the case and I ´m totally out of place, I ´ll keep my point to myself and will stick to my contributions and use of the site. I do not create the rules nor do I want to play Victor ´s role in here.
Thanks for all the replies and the time taken to consider this. I really appreciate it.
Word tools are available for everyone, but each person uses them
according to his skills, good taste, sense of colors and shapes. It �s not that
easy as you may want it look. Why do we have tutorials on layouts here (and
they get tons of downloads) if it �s that easy to create a layout? I struggled
for some weeks with word tools until I understand how it works. And I did it
with the help of some tutorials!
It �s not the simple to prepare a layout, some members spend hours on
it!
And there �s a license term here: no one can use any part of someone �s
work (something he made himself) without his permission. The rule is clear.
As a member you can relinquish your right. As a moderator we have to
defend the owner �s right according to the rules we have here.
The case Bruna is mentioning was primarily reported by the layout �s
owner, so it �s clear she didn�tgive
permission, and she didn �t want his layout being used by other members. It �s
her right, and we have to defend it.
@bruna, you don �t have to vote on every ws reported. Some cases when it
�s difficult to make up my mind I refrain from voting. We have tons of
moderators and there are many other cases on the reporting page. You are
neither obliged to vote against your beliefs nor give up help clean the site -
since you consider it important.
If you think ESL P. is so important for you - and not only for you - I
reckon you should keep reporting and voting, refraining from voting the cases
you are not sure about.
Of course we can use stars, they are free on the net, so you are free to
use them because the license on the site where you took them is saying that you
can use for non-profit work. But if you use the same combination of clipart, at
the same place, it�s clear they were taken not from a site, but from the older
ws.
I use layout to make ws more attractive, not to get points, but more
attractive for my students. And I do care about the content because it is the
most important thing we are sharing here. This is not a site for designers; it�s
a site for teachers. But there�s no law against a combination of good content
& pleasant look.
I didn�t say teachers who don�t prepare a beautiful layout are lazy; I
said teachers who want to upload a
beautiful layout but don�t want to spend their time preparing it and use other
person�s ws as a template, uploading it as theirs are lazy. They want to
have, but they want neither to spend their time creating nor to ask permission
first.
Well, I think it �s sooo easy to write a PM and ask for permission... I believe MOST members would feel flattered and GIVE the permission... We love to share and give, but we expect others to be polite and FAIR...
YES, you are right. The points are given according to the DESIGN and Layout... The contents does not always matter so much... WHY? Because the students love fancy layouts! So, it is fair to get a lot of points for easy deasy wss with wonderful layout? Yes, because the students appreciate easy tasks and curly designs... That �s why the top-downloaded wss look like a fashion show :-D
Anyway, I like your printer friendly design with stars. Can be easily photocopied... SO please keep sharing and don �t get angry because we do not agree 100% with you...
)
